Christian Socialism?

[Koehler]

Could someone please explain "Christian Socialism?" Basics, if possible (too unstudied, even, to figure it out from the posts already here).

Or - if someone knows where I can read about it - post a link.

Appreciatively,
Sarah

[axon]

I don't know much about it as well....but google always works wonders  

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22christian+socialism%22&btnG=Google+Search

I'm sure at least one of the results from the first couple of pages will prove useful - happy hunting

[Koehler]

I can not believe I didn't already do that. I am literally blushing from embarassment!

[Lise]

I think the basic idea behind Christian Socialism is that I will help and you will help me because by helping each other we will each reduce our individual suffering and increase our happiness.  I think the notes from the U.D were in part dostoevsky's response to this.  I think the notes say that this will never work; man is not this rational; he dosen't always act in his own interest.   Liza gives an example of love with out hopes of personal gain though (unlike the christian socialists)... maybe as a suggestion for a solution to the problem?

also don't really take my word on the defintion of christian socalism it might be off the mark , tell me if you found something else in your research

[earth]

I idea is that some people believe that socialism can not exist outside of religion.  There are people that believe that man is not a pure and good creature and therefore needs the constraints of religion to keep him in check and make him realize that "loving thy neighbour" is paramount to life.

This theme arises many a time in D's books, and very much mirrors his own troubled life.  He has, I feel, always questioned the validity of God as he knows that he himself is a pure and good creature.  Hence, why should he need God to make sure he adheres to his socialist leanings?

The simple fact of the matter is that Christian Socialism is the same as Socialism on a whole.  The only difference is that some people feel there will always been a need for religion in our society, for God to keep us in check.  In this respect you can have Buddist Socialism, you can have Muslim Socialism, etc. etc.

This is also, it must be noted, why there is no such think as Christian Communism.  The State replaces religion as the means of keeping us Good and Pure.

I for one, am a socialist.  I believe people are, for the most part, good and pure.

[earth]

I think the notes say that this will never work; man is not this rational; he dosen't always act in his own interest.   Liza gives an example of love with out hopes of personal gain though (unlike the christian socialists)... maybe as a suggestion for a solution to the problem?

It's actually quite the opposite.  Man naturally acts in his own interests when he should be paying attention to the interests of others.

[axon]

I think the notes say that this will never work; man is not this rational; he dosen't always act in his own interest.   Liza gives an example of love with out hopes of personal gain though (unlike the christian socialists)... maybe as a suggestion for a solution to the problem?

It's actually quite the opposite.  Man naturally acts in his own interests when he should be paying attention to the interests of others.

I could agree with both of your statements here   but I take eileen's meaning of "personal interest" as a "higher" interest - salvation, perhaps...only then does the statement work.

I fully agree with Earth's statements as long as it partains to material things and base emotions. Man is so naturally selfish that he will do EVERYTHING in order to get ahead in the two, just mentioned, categories.

[Lise]

I disagree. People often hurt themselves to hurt others and hurt others to hurt themselves. This is not rational but it people really do it.  behavior is motivated by spite.  I think this is the trap of the underground man. Take Marmledov(sorry to lazy to look up correct spelling) from crime and punishment he loses his job  in order to lash out against his wife.  Take sonya for example, if she was becoming a prositute out of spite instead of self-sacrifice it would mean nothing. It would just be another case of hurting yourself in order to hurt others. If she was saying to her family, you want me to become a prositute, fine look i'll be a prostitute then! her gesture would mean nothing.  This is where the distinction lies.  It is not wether we act in our own interest because we could simply be acting out of irrational spite; but rather the feeling behind it. The best is to act irrationally out of love instead of spite; through total self-sacrifice.

[Lise]

Also  I think the underground is the opposite of rationality. He will not even admit two plus two equals four

[earth]

I disagree. People often hurt themselves to hurt others and hurt others to hurt themselves. This is not rational but it people really do it.  behavior is motivated by spite.  I think this is the trap of the underground man. Take Marmledov(sorry to lazy to look up correct spelling) from crime and punishment he loses his job  in order to lash out against his wife.  Take sonya for example, if she was becoming a prositute out of spite instead of self-sacrifice it would mean nothing. It would just be another case of hurting yourself in order to hurt others. If she was saying to her family, you want me to become a prositute, fine look i'll be a prostitute then! her gesture would mean nothing.  This is where the distinction lies.  It is not wether we act in our own interest because we could simply be acting out of irrational spite; but rather the feeling behind it. The best is to act irrationally out of love instead of spite; through total self-sacrifice.

I see where you're coming from now and I do agree with you to an extent.  It's sad that we live in a world where people are so involved in their own self interests that they forget about those around them, such is the case in the two examples you have stated.

I believe it was Gandhi who once said that, and I paraphrase, "the Jewish people in Nazi Germany would have done better to make the world see the atroscities if they had committed mass suicide.  They were going to die anyways, and man tend to pay more attention to people when they take their own lives".

By committing such a drastic action towards yourself you are attempting to create awareness in those around you to your plight.  Extremely selfish I agree, but noble no?

Then you get down to definitions of things such a morals, honour, etc.

[earth]

Also  I think the underground is the opposite of rationality. He will not even admit two plus two equals four

Also agreed, but such is human nature.  I like to think when reading it he knew 2+2=4 he just didn't want to admit it.  His life was torture but it didn't have to be and he knew it.  That, to me, was quite evident in his last conversation with Liza.  He both loved and loathed her at the same time.  He was human, let debased himself in his humanity.  I think this is a common issue with a lot of true left leaning people.  You realize the horrors produced of humanity and wish to not be a part of it.

Something I think Dostoevsky was very in tune with during his life.

[earth]

The Ghandi issue

Nor did he, like most Western pacifists, specialize in avoiding awkward questions. In relation to the late war, one question that every pacifist had a clear obligation to answer was: "What about the Jews? Are you prepared to see them exterminated? If not, how do you propose to save them without resorting to war?" I must say that I have never heard, from any Western pacifist, an honest answer to this question, though I have heard plenty of evasions, usually of the "you're another" type. But it so happens that Gandhi was asked a somewhat similar question in 1938 and that his answer is on record in Mr. Louis Fischer's Gandhi and Stalin. According to Mr. Fischer, Gandhi's view was that the German Jews ought to commit collective suicide, which "would have aroused the world and the people of Germany to Hitler's violence." After the war he justified himself: the Jews had been killed anyway, and might as well have died significantly. One has the impression that this attitude staggered even so warm an admirer as Mr. Fischer, but Gandhi was merely being honest. If you are not prepared to take life, you must often be prepared for lives to be lost in some other way. When, in 1942, he urged non-violent resistance against a Japanese invasion, he was ready to admit that it might cost several million deaths.

[Lise]

"By committing such a drastic action towards yourself you are attempting to create awareness in those around you to your plight.  Extremely selfish I agree, but noble no?"

The self sacrifice I am talking about isn't selfish at all. In fact it is a complete self-effacement. It is the meek, humble sacrifice of Christ.  It is the realization that we are all responsible for the evil in the world and accepting guilt and punishment eventhough we might appear to be innocent.  Lisa by refusing to retailiate to the underground man's spite with more insult ends the cycle of pain.  She absorbs the underground man's blows.  This is very personal decision hardly a national one.  For the jews to do this they would have all had to make this personal decision.  I don't think this really could ever happen.  Liza's self sacrifice is the embodiment of freedom and shows her character is developed to the apex. The U.M is searching for this kind of  freedom in his notes by denying the conventions of society, but in reality the underground is a trap. It is a cycle of spite and pride. Liza ends the cycle and offers the reader an escape from the undrground.  The escape represents the real ultimate freedom, and involes sacrifcing your own self for the good of others.  I think this is an ideal though and awfully hard to really live out.

[earth]

you don't need christ for that though.  The fact that Dostoevsky led his life feeling a burden towards his fellow man while opposing christ in his early life is evident of that.

I am humble and compassionate towards my fellow man and give far more than my friends yet I have no love of religion.

It's possible to have socialism without a "state" or "religion".  THe problem lies in our own personal beliefs that we need one or the other to impose those high moral values upon the general population.

Until we grow up past both those flawed ways of thinking we're always going to have religion and we're always goign to have a state.  Because of both of these we're never going to acheive true socialism.

We're always goign to be striving for "Christian" Socialism or "State" Socialism (ie. communism).

[earth]

And I actually believe Lisa was the foil to bring out those negative problems that are in the Underground Man (ie. all of us).  D is great with using things like these in his storytelling.

There is nothing wrong with the Underground Man.  He merely has opened himself to a system that he does not want to be a part of, IMHO.  He comes across as he does because of self loathing at not being what he wants to be.  Living in two different worlds, yet living in one.

It's hard to explain, though with Dostoevsky, I don't think it would ever be easy...