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Author Topic: Demons - about Karmazinow/Toergenjew  (Read 2322 times)
Worm
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« on: March 13, 2004, 02:49:09 PM »
Hello, i am new to this forum.  I have been a long fan of Dostojewski, and this is the first online site that i've found that discusses his work.  I appreciate this forum was made.

I'd like to hear other reader's views on ....
In DEMONS, Dostojewski ridiculizes Karmazinow (which is a character that represents Toergenjew).  He takes a position of being against Toergenjew.  I found it not directly clear why Dostojewski disliked him .. the only reason found was that he found Toergenjew to think too highly of himself, too vain.  But in Part Two, Chapter 6, Pjotr Stepanovitsj is busy, Dostojewski gives a piece of the Karmazinow/Toergenjew character, which seems to give a whole lot more sense to his being against Toergenjew.  Karmazinow tells about his views on Russia and Europe and himself.  Now, i find the explanation to be a bit gray and unclear.  I'd like to discuss this dialogue and am eager for your words.
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Worm
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« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2004, 04:49:05 AM »
Nobody?
Who here has read "Demons"?
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Golyadkin

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« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2004, 02:34:59 PM »
I intend to soon.
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« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2004, 05:36:45 PM »
I think Dostoevsky was bothered that Turgenev was too sympathetic with the Nihilists in "Fathers and Sons".
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axon
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« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2004, 07:51:57 PM »
Hello there...I'm very glad I have found this forum! I am rereading "The Devils" as we speak, and I could try and answer your question.

The main, and very blunt reason, for Dostoevsky's caricature of Turganev in the novel is because he simply disliked the man himself. He disliked him for one general reason only - because Turganev would not lend him money!! yes, this is proven to be the chief reason.

Another reason is that Turganev is a perfect, and really good example, of the progressive "men of the 40's", and that is how he is represented in the book. By the way, Stepan Verkhovensky and many of the club members are also the men of the 40's.

Also, did you know that the word 'nihilist' was invented by Turganev in "Fathers and Sons"....the Nihilists, in turn, picked up on the title and gladly used it Smiley that is a bit of trivia for you!

I'm ready to discuss this novel at full length if anyone is willing...this is my second reading of it.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2004, 08:11:01 PM by axon » Logged
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« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2004, 07:54:59 PM »
>>Turgenev was too sympathetic with the Nihilists in "Fathers and Sons".

You should really read Turganev's "The Virgin Soul", to find out that his stance towards the nihilists was not favorable...it is pretty clear in "Fathers and Sons" though.
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A man must stand in fear of just those things
  that truly have the power to do us harm,
  of nothing else, for nothing else is fearsome.
-Dante's Inferno,  C2 88-90
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« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2004, 08:00:01 PM »
axon, welcome to the forum!  We're very glad you're here and can already tell your input will be of great value...
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« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2004, 08:12:19 PM »
>> axon, welcome to the forum!  We're very glad you're here and can already tell your input will be of great value...

glad to be here!! I was looking for a fresh forum on Dostoevsky for a while now...how long has this been around?
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A man must stand in fear of just those things
  that truly have the power to do us harm,
  of nothing else, for nothing else is fearsome.
-Dante's Inferno,  C2 88-90
Mogwai
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« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2004, 08:25:19 PM »
Quote from: axon on March 30, 2004, 08:12:19 PM
glad to be here!! I was looking for a fresh forum on Dostoevsky for a while now...how long has this been around?

I made this site live just over 3 months ago - so it's quite new!  Cool
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"Long my imprisoned spirit lay, Fast bound in sin and nature’s night; Thine eye diffused a quickening ray—I woke, the dungeon flamed with light; My chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth, and followed Thee." -Charles Wesley
Worm
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« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2004, 01:53:36 PM »
Quote from: axon on March 30, 2004, 07:51:57 PM
Hello there...I'm very glad I have found this forum! I am rereading "The Devils" as we speak, and I could try and answer your question.

The main, and very blunt reason, for Dostoevsky's caricature of Turganev in the novel is because he simply disliked the man himself. He disliked him for one general reason only - because Turganev would not lend him money!! yes, this is proven to be the chief reason.

Another reason is that Turganev is a perfect, and really good example, of the progressive "men of the 40's", and that is how he is represented in the book. By the way, Stepan Verkhovensky and many of the club members are also the men of the 40's.

Also, did you know that the word 'nihilist' was invented by Turganev in "Fathers and Sons"....the Nihilists, in turn, picked up on the title and gladly used it Smiley that is a bit of trivia for you!

I'm ready to discuss this novel at full length if anyone is willing...this is my second reading of it.


The refusing to lend Dostoeysky money i consider to be A reason, but not the chief reason.  I think the chief reason is that Dostoeysky condemns him because he believes Turgenyev is not really behind the Russian people, while he says he is.

Re-read the part where Joelia says to Karmazinow 'Are you telling me that you care more for your Karlsruhe pipe than for the Russian people?'.  And read the part of the discussion between Karmazinow and Pjotr, where Karmazinow states his view on Russia.
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« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2004, 02:43:22 PM »
well, ofcourse, one of Karamazinov's sins is his view of the russian peasent, russian language, etc. etc (just like Stepan's)...but in D's notes about the novel he didn't like him because of the money issue....go figure.
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A man must stand in fear of just those things
  that truly have the power to do us harm,
  of nothing else, for nothing else is fearsome.
-Dante's Inferno,  C2 88-90
Worm
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« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2004, 11:06:40 AM »
Good point.  If Dostojewski would have disliked him for his vision, it would have been in there too .. and in capital letters.
But it doesn't discard the vision D had of Toergenjew/Karmazinow .. but i don't find real proof for it either.  Dostojewski did go about with Toergenjew in real life .. so i think his idea about it is based on his own observations from interacting with him.


I've started to reread the book for a second time today, by the way.  It's really worth it.
Maybe i'm going to do two books at the same time ... i want to reread 'The Adolescent' very badly .. and can't wait until i've entirely finished "Devils" for the second time.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2004, 12:57:11 PM by Worm » Logged
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