Gorky - Opinions Sought On Gulag And Canal

[mjmcneill]

I have read a lot of Gorky and find certain events in his later life rather puzzling, considering the passion and the humanity of his early writing.  I wonder if anyone can offer me some thoughts?  (Please do not direct me to a wikipedia article.)  Do you think he had the wool pulled over his eyes when he visited the Gulag?  Was he coerced into editing The White Sea Canal: A Hymn of Praise for Forced Labour?  I know that Gorky admired the value of physical labour, so I imagine it was possible to present both of these projects to him as redemptive exercises for down-and-outs and criminals.  But could he really have praised them if he knew exactly what was going on?  His distaste for brutality is something he carried with him from childhood after all; it is like a voltage in his work.  In fact, I am convinced he was used as a Soviet prop, I find the difference so startling.  But nevertheless there is the possibility that in old age he was blinded by flattery ...

I would especially like to hear from any Russians on this site.  What place does Gorky occupy in the Russian consciousness?  What are you taught about him, if anything?  I would be grateful for any words or thoughts you might have.

If anyone else is interested in this question there is some background information here: http://www.iisg.nl/collections/belomorkanal/praise.html

On another note, has anyone read Gorky's fascinating book On Literature?  It contains two marvellous descriptions of Tolstoy and Chekov.  The three of them used to hang out, it seems.  Tolstoy has some interesting things to say about Dostoevsky .....
 

[OlegB]

You asked some replies from Russians, so here you go .
Gorky is a VERY controversial figure for me and generally in the modern Russian consciousness because while he did create some great masterpieces ("The Lower Depths" - which is actually the only thing I like of Gorky, while acknowledging his talent and significance), he also created some tasteless ideological works which hold almost no literary value at all. I haven't read his impressions on the Belomorkanal, but I am most sure he didn't know everything. It is important to note that he was kept under house arrest in the last time of his life and was given a special version of the Pravda newspaper without any info on the ongoing purges. The version of Stalin poisoning him is wrong, however.
On the other hand, I don't believe you should judge Gorky very high and redeem him of all the really bad things he commited. First of all, he is the founder and the main propagandist of Socialist Realism, the first example of which is "Mother", written in 1906 (which Fyodor Stepun, a Russian emigree critic, called "a cheap Marxist poster"). Upon returning to the USSR he headed the Union of Soviet Writers which essentially took control of all the course of literature of that period. He is one of the main persons to blame for the tightening of political control over literature which prohibited publishing literature not complying to the rules of Socialist Realism (which is "to show the reality in its socialist development", or, in essence, show not "what is" but "what will or should be"). So, despite all the controversy, Gorky is still to blame for many terrible things that happened to Russian literature during Stalin's era.
And speaking of it, do you really find Gorky's early works so humanitarian? I don't know, maybe it's just your translation, but for me his early novellas are extremely unsincere, they are just so artificially written that you don't believe a word he says. "The Lower Depths" is much better because it's a play, but Gorky still tried to force his own way of thinking by "caricaturising" the character of Luka, whom I find superior to all other characters of the play. Gorky had a great talent, but, in my opinion, "sold" it to the ideology he believed in.
Speaking of what we are taught of him... I'm finishing school now, myself, and I can say it's very strange how they teach him to us. The only things in the official curriculum are his early novellas and "The Lower Depths". Marxist works like "Mother" have been left out because of the change in ideology but teachers still often contribute a lesson to them because it's important to know about Socialist Realism - it was the leading direction of Russian literature for more than 50 years, after all.
I hope my words can be helpful - if maybe too short on the topic (concerning particaluraly Belomorkanal, though I think I managed to give you a whole picture).

[OlegV]

He knew everything about building of Belomorkanal and GULAG but have no courage to write truth about this.

[underworld men]

He knew everything about building of Belomorkanal and GULAG but have no courage to write truth about this.

Hello olegv,

        What is the consensus on the master and margarita movie?

UM

[tzar]

I have read a lot of Gorky and find certain events in his later life rather puzzling...  Was he coerced into editing The White Sea Canal: A Hymn of Praise for Forced Labour?  I know that Gorky admired the value of physical labour, so I imagine it was possible to present both of these projects to him as redemptive exercises for down-and-outs and criminals.  But could he really have praised them if he knew exactly what was going on?  

yes, he did know what was going on.
but he realised there was no other way to pull Russia out of crisis but through employment of drastic measures both in economy and politics.

[underworld men]

I have read a lot of Gorky and find certain events in his later life rather puzzling...  Was he coerced into editing The White Sea Canal: A Hymn of Praise for Forced Labour?  I know that Gorky admired the value of physical labour, so I imagine it was possible to present both of these projects to him as redemptive exercises for down-and-outs and criminals.  But could he really have praised them if he knew exactly what was going on?  

yes, he did know what was going on.
but he realised there was no other way to pull Russia out of crisis but through employment of drastic measures both in economy and politics.

Tzar why does this sound like troll bait?

[tzar]

I have read a lot of Gorky and find certain events in his later life rather puzzling...  Was he coerced into editing The White Sea Canal: A Hymn of Praise for Forced Labour?  I know that Gorky admired the value of physical labour, so I imagine it was possible to present both of these projects to him as redemptive exercises for down-and-outs and criminals.  But could he really have praised them if he knew exactly what was going on?  

yes, he did know what was going on.
but he realised there was no other way to pull Russia out of crisis but through employment of drastic measures both in economy and politics.

Tzar why does this sound like troll bait?

since when the truth is called a trolling?

[underworld men]

I have read a lot of Gorky and find certain events in his later life rather puzzling...  Was he coerced into editing The White Sea Canal: A Hymn of Praise for Forced Labour?  I know that Gorky admired the value of physical labour, so I imagine it was possible to present both of these projects to him as redemptive exercises for down-and-outs and criminals.  But could he really have praised them if he knew exactly what was going on?  

yes, he did know what was going on.
but he realised there was no other way to pull Russia out of crisis but through employment of drastic measures both in economy and politics.

Tzar why does this sound like troll bait?

since when the truth is called a trolling?

I will not argue with you. I will say this Stalin was a murder.
I do not see how making apologies for a murderer is the truth.
I do not care nor am I speaking of anyone else but Stalin.
Very soon tzar I will be asking that you get banned. You have come onto the board attacked Lerik and been obstinate when called out about it.

This a Dostoevsky fan website not a communist mass murderer apology denial of the gulags website.

You have shown with that swatiska signature of yours that you are a troll.

[lerik]

I have read a lot of Gorky and find certain events in his later life rather puzzling...  Was he coerced into editing The White Sea Canal: A Hymn of Praise for Forced Labour?  I know that Gorky admired the value of physical labour, so I imagine it was possible to present both of these projects to him as redemptive exercises for down-and-outs and criminals.  But could he really have praised them if he knew exactly what was going on?  

yes, he did know what was going on.
but he realised there was no other way to pull Russia out of crisis but through employment of drastic measures both in economy and politics.

Tzar why does this sound like troll bait?

since when the truth is called a trolling?

Tzar,can you please say where you get such thoughts?If you look at Russian history you will see that Stalin's 'measures' didn't bring the USSR economy out of crisis.I totaly agree with Underworld men that Stalin was a murderer.The only 'good' thing you can say about him was that under his command,USSR won WW2.But then again,if it wasn't for common people who knows what would have become of Russia

[lerik]

Answering mjmcneil's question.In Russian schools we study Gorky's "The lower depths","Song of a storm petrel","Song of a falcon".Right now,Gorky isn't popular among the Russians

[tzar]

I have read a lot of Gorky and find certain events in his later life rather puzzling...  Was he coerced into editing The White Sea Canal: A Hymn of Praise for Forced Labour?  I know that Gorky admired the value of physical labour, so I imagine it was possible to present both of these projects to him as redemptive exercises for down-and-outs and criminals.  But could he really have praised them if he knew exactly what was going on?  

yes, he did know what was going on.
but he realised there was no other way to pull Russia out of crisis but through employment of drastic measures both in economy and politics.

Tzar why does this sound like troll bait?

since when the truth is called a trolling?

I will not argue with you. I will say this Stalin was a murder.
I do not see how making apologies for a murderer is the truth.
I do not care nor am I speaking of anyone else but Stalin.
Very soon tzar I will be asking that you get banned. You have come onto the board attacked Lerik and been obstinate when called out about it.
This a Dostoevsky fan website not a communist mass murderer apology denial of the gulags website.
you have shown with that swatiska signature of yours that you are a troll.

1)  you were brainwashed by western propoganda dear sir.
it's utterly incorrect to call Stalin a murderer, as well as incorrect to claim that mass murders ever took place on the territory of USSR.  because no international investigation was ever launched on that.
thus, Stalin just did his job the way the website admins and mods implement own duties, for example.

2)  swastika is an ancient symbol akin to ying - yang.

3)  i'm not a troll,  since i always follow the thread's subject,  i'm just your opponent.

[underworld men]

I have read a lot of Gorky and find certain events in his later life rather puzzling...  Was he coerced into editing The White Sea Canal: A Hymn of Praise for Forced Labour?  I know that Gorky admired the value of physical labour, so I imagine it was possible to present both of these projects to him as redemptive exercises for down-and-outs and criminals.  But could he really have praised them if he knew exactly what was going on?  

yes, he did know what was going on.
but he realised there was no other way to pull Russia out of crisis but through employment of drastic measures both in economy and politics.

Tzar why does this sound like troll bait?

since when the truth is called a trolling?

I will not argue with you. I will say this Stalin was a murder.
I do not see how making apologies for a murderer is the truth.
I do not care nor am I speaking of anyone else but Stalin.
Very soon tzar I will be asking that you get banned. You have come onto the board attacked Lerik and been obstinate when called out about it.
This a Dostoevsky fan website not a communist mass murderer apology denial of the gulags website.
you have shown with that swatiska signature of yours that you are a troll.

1)  you were brainwashed by western propoganda dear sir.
it's utterly incorrect to call Stalin a murderer, as well as incorrect to claim that mass murders ever took place on the territory of USSR.  because no international investigation was ever launched on that.
thus, Stalin just did his job the way the website admins and mods implement own duties, for example.

2)  swastika is an ancient symbol akin to ying - yang.

3)  i'm not a troll,  since i always follow the thread's subject,  i'm just your opponent.

Your a troll and this proves it.

As for Stalin for anyone, but this about to be banned troll.
Here is but one tiny little example.

http://www.latvians.com/en/Reading/TheseNamesAccuse/ThNA-00-OurFamilies.php

[tzar]

I have read a lot of Gorky and find certain events in his later life rather puzzling...  Was he coerced into editing The White Sea Canal: A Hymn of Praise for Forced Labour?  I know that Gorky admired the value of physical labour, so I imagine it was possible to present both of these projects to him as redemptive exercises for down-and-outs and criminals.  But could he really have praised them if he knew exactly what was going on?  

yes, he did know what was going on.
but he realised there was no other way to pull Russia out of crisis but through employment of drastic measures both in economy and politics.

Tzar why does this sound like troll bait?

since when the truth is called a trolling?

I will not argue with you. I will say this Stalin was a murder.
I do not see how making apologies for a murderer is the truth.
I do not care nor am I speaking of anyone else but Stalin.
Very soon tzar I will be asking that you get banned. You have come onto the board attacked Lerik and been obstinate when called out about it.
This a Dostoevsky fan website not a communist mass murderer apology denial of the gulags website.
you have shown with that swatiska signature of yours that you are a troll.

1)  you were brainwashed by western propoganda dear sir.
it's utterly incorrect to call Stalin a murderer, as well as incorrect to claim that mass murders ever took place on the territory of USSR.  because no international investigation was ever launched on that.
thus, Stalin just did his job the way the website admins and mods implement own duties, for example.
2)  swastika is an ancient symbol akin to ying - yang.
3)  i'm not a troll,  since i always follow the thread's subject,  i'm just your opponent.

your a troll and this proves it.
As for Stalin for anyone, but this about to be banned troll.
Here is but one tiny little example.
http://www.latvians.com/en/Reading/TheseNamesAccuse/ThNA-00-OurFamilies.php

www.latvians.com represents very biased opinions whereas not taking in account the political situation of the time.

[underworld men]

Now be careful to pick and choose. As Dostoevsky said in the house of the dead-criminals will always find some justification.

http://www.lithuanian-american.org/bridges/bal99/dorr.html


Jonas Kentra
http://vip.latnet.lv/LPRA/TerrorVilnius.htm

http://neris.mii.lt/prezidentai/Stulginskis_e.html

http://www.anneapplebaum.com/gulag/intro.html

http://www.stanford.edu/group/i-rite/statements/2001/barnes.html

http://gulaghistory.org/exhibits/nps/onlineexhibit/

http://gulaghistory.org/exhibits/nps/reflections/survivors/

http://www.ugcc.org.ua/eng/news/article;2401/

http://www.memo.ru/history/NKVD/GULAG/maps/ussri.htm

http://www.faminegenocide.com/resources/bilinsky.html

From the church
http://www.roca.org/OA/Russia.htm

Let me guess ALL these people are lying right. Only you are telling the truth..

[underworld men]

PS Most kills attributed to one man=Karl Marx

Most kills by a devil=Stalin (Karl is still number one)

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/atrox.htm

Most lives saved by a single man = Norman Borlaug

http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/peace/laureates/1970/borlaug-bio.html

And White's mischief page..

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/gunsorxp.htm#XP