Characters in The Brothers Karamazov

[Mitya]

Wanted to explore the people in my favorite of Dostoevsky's work (so far, that is.  ) I love the characters in TBK because they have so much depth. Certainly, Alyosha can be classified as a spiritualist, but that is not all he is, as Ivan is an intellectual, but if that were all he was he wouldn't be so conflicted inside, and I'd like to get beyond the labels of Dmitri as sensual or Ivan as intellectual, et cetera, in discussions here because there is so much more. Each of the brothers have their own way of dealing with the carnality they were born into. I'd also like to hear your thoughts on the minor characters, specifically, Lise. She appears so little in the book, yet the scenes in which she plays a part are very distinctive. Is she merely shallow and superficial or crazy?  

[Ivan]

I'm sure you are aware of the huge can of worms you just opened.  How about we stick to one character to begin with... and after we've toyed around with that character we can move on.  Things will just get too chaotic if we try and discuss everyone at once.

Do you want to talk about Lise first?  I'll leave it up to you since it's your topic.

[Mitya]

I do love a good can of worms once in a while  , but sure, let's talk about Lise first. Is Alyosha serious about her for any continuance? Is she in love with him, but can't express it because she's shallow or crazy? Is she shallow or crazy? Will she only get better, or is she destined to spiral downhill? Are all of you here at the forum as annoyed with her as others seem to be, judging from their opinions which they were so kind as to put online on various sources?

[Kai]

About Lise.  When I first became introduced to her I thought she was nuts.  But really, I don't think she is.   She acts so antagonistically towards Alyosha I think, becuase she is handicapped and the only way she can feel superior to others is by manipulating them.  And Alyosha is an easy target.  I think thats why she likes him so much.  He makes her feel like shes on an equal level.

[Golyadkin]

This is scary. Just like 30 minutes ago, I wrote a paper with this very name (Characters in TBK).

[Ivan]

I was hoping you weren't going to say that!    I don't have much to say about Lise.... but I think Kai made a good point about her need to have some kind of foot hold over Alyosha.

I don't know if she is in love with Alyosha but I do think that she needs him to feel normal... maybe because he is the only one who doesn't judge her(?)
I did think Alyosha was serious about marrying her but again, I don't think it was out of love.  Father Zossima sent Alyosha out to get married and to live a normal life and it seems like Alyosha just jumps into this by saying "OK, I guess I'll marry Lise!"
But it doesn't fit with Alyosha's character... that is, him being so incencere.

I'll have to think a little more about this as Lise was a confusing character for me.

[Mitya]

Posted by: Ivan  Posted on: Today at 01:45:55pm  
I was hoping you weren't going to say that!    I don't have much to say about Lise.... but I think Kai made a good point about her need to have some kind of foot hold over Alyosha.

I'm sorry! Lise is confusing for me, too. Kai made an excellent point. Hmm. Alyosha makes Lise feel normal. Can you elucidate? How so? It's an interesting concept. How abnormal is she, and why? (Aside from the fact that she is physically crippled... or do you think that's it...)

My first reaction to Lise was "she is so weird". But Dostoevsky doesn't appear to spend enough time on her to make her really come through as a person without some deductive reasoning (inductive reasoning? I can never remember.).  

[Golyadkin]

I was hoping you weren't going to say that!

...what..?

[Mitya]

I was hoping you weren't going to say that!

...what..?

I don't think Ivan, in his inner heart of hearts, wanted to begin this juicy topic discussing Lise. If nobody wants to add any more to the comments on her, maybe we can discuss a major (or at least more controversial) character now?

[Golyadkin]

Let's discuss Zossima!

[Ivan]

You found me out Mitya  

It isn't that I don't think that Lise is an interesting character it is just that I don't feel like I have anything interesting to say about her  

I think her physical crippling transfers to a sort of mental crippling.  She can't get attention while in a wheel-chair and so she spends her time worrying and being anxious over being noticed.  I think this is apparent when we first meet her as a character--- what happens?  Alyosha totally ignores her and tries not to notice her waves.  I think that is basically her problem -- attention--.  Her mother gives her the wrong kind of attention, the kind Lise doesn't even want.  That is why when we're in their house we always find Lise in one room and her mother in another room.  Alyosha is the only one who treats her like a normal person (later in the story) and therefore gives her the attention she needs.

Of course I just came up with this off the top of my head, so... I don't know.  Maybe somebody could challenge or add to my ideas before we move on?

[Mitya]

What do you think Lise feels is the wrong kind of attention? Why does she act abnormally when she's around Alyosha if she wants him to keep treating her like a normal person?

[Mogwai]

Just a side note - Professor Beyer has a solid character sketch/summary of each character in TBK here:
http://community.middlebury.edu/~beyer/courses/previous/ru351/novels/bk/studyguide.shtml

You can also check out a lot of other cool stuff he has here: http://community.middlebury.edu/~beyer/courses/courses.shtml (scroll all the way to the bottom for some very resourceful pages on Dostoevsky and his major novels)

Here's what he wrote about our current character of focus, Lise (not too much detail, though):

Liza (Lise) Katerinovna Khoklakhov

Lise is a young woman whom Alyosha knew as a child and who writes Alyosha a love letter. She visits the Starets and makes Alyosha uncomfortable with her attention towards him. She is currently unable to walk under her own power, but seems to be improving in strength. She has tendencies to be very childish towards Alyosha, telling him that the letter was just a joke, later saying that it was not. She admits that she is in love with Alyosha, and they plan to be married. Alyosha kisses her while in his monk garb and she finds this ridiculous. At the end of the novel, after Dmitri's conviction, we again see Alyosha visiting her, and she admits to liking physical pain and suffering.

Sorry for the brief interruption...carry on!  

[Ivan]

Why does she act abnormally when she's around Alyosha if she wants him to keep treating her like a normal person?

Good point.  The only thing I can say is this:  
I remember her mother treating her like a child and so she was use to that sort of abuse.  When not abused she wasn't quite sure how to act (while around Alyosha).  She bursts into tears and regrets her actions every time Alyosha leaves her presence because she knows she acted foolishly... but she can't help it, she is use to being talked down on and therefore being on the offensive (normally the defensive for her) comes natural.  She is trying to cope with conversation that puts her on an equal footing but she can't quite get it because she is use to having to defend herself.
Alyosha knows this and is therefore forgiving.

So the wrong kind of attention is the kind that awknowledges the fact that she is a helpless crippled teenager.

Again!  This is a little pyscho-analytical but like you said earlier--- Dostoevsky doesn't help us much on trying to figure this character out.  So these types of leaps are necessary(?)

[Mitya]

Ivan, I'm interested in psychoanalysis, so your comments on Lise are definitely welcome, however speculative they may be. Do you think if she spends enough time with Alyosha and people like him she'll be able to attain relative normality? Is her crippled physical state so parallel to her mental and emotional wellbeing that she is actually bound mentally and emotionally as long as she is lame?