Nietzschie's atheism

[Childe Harold]

UW said in another post that N was not an atheist and that he worshipped the pagan god Dionysius. Everyone of course is familiar with N's regard for Dionysius. The question is, did he worship him? and does this worship constitute religious belief?

From Ecce Homo:
"God," "immortality of the soul," "redemption," "beyond"--without exception, concepts to which i never devoted any attention, or time; not even as a child. Perhaps I have never been childlike enough for them?"

And from Thus Spoke Zarathustra:
"You revere me; but what if your reverence tumbles one day? Beware lest a statue slay you.
     You say that you believe in Zaruthustra? But what matters Zarathustra? You are my believers--but what matter all believers?
     You had not yet sought yourselves; and you found me. Thus do all believers; therefore all faith amounts to so little."

I resisted the "God is dead" expression because that would just be trite. I hope the excerpts above, which are only two out of many, will demonstrate--for those needing demonstration--the impiety of Nietzsche. Put simply UW says he worshipped a pagan god, but worship is an activity, not a spiritual or philosophical position. Thus it is a claim no one who didn't see Nietzsche in his private life will be able to prove. Put simply, Nietzsche didn't believe in belief.

P.S. Some might say N was religious in his fervor for the "overman" and in his exaltation of Dionysius. This may be true, but it does not make him theist.

[underworld men]

"Is the pagan cult not a form of thanksgiving and affirmation of life?

Anti-christ.

"What sets us apart is not that we recognize no God, either in history or in nature or behind nature --- but that we find that which has been reverenced as God not "godlike" but pitiable, absurd, harmful, not merely an error but a crime against life.".

Will to Power

"Dionysus cut to pieces is a promise of life: it will be eternally reborn and return again from destruction."

The Will to Power

So Steph what did Freddys Hyperboreans believe?

[Childe Harold]

First of all it's Harold to you UW. And my name's with a 'f' besides.

As for your first quote, cultish doesn't equal pious or theist.

As for your second quote, it doesn't seem the confession of a believer. Marx saw a God in history didn't he, yet he was an atheist. In fact I would have loved to have written that. And you're well aware of my beliefs.

As for the last, how romantic. How lovely.

I don't know what his hyperboreans believed. But I still see Nietzsche as an atheist. Although I see him as much more than just this.  

[underworld men]

First of all it's Harold to you UW. And my name's with a 'f' besides.

As for your first quote, cultish doesn't equal pious or theist.

As for your second quote, it doesn't seem the confession of a believer. Marx saw a God in history didn't he, yet he was an atheist. In fact I would have loved to have written that. And you're well aware of my beliefs.

As for the last, how romantic. How lovely.

I don't know what his hyperboreans believed. But I still see Nietzsche as an atheist. Although I see him as much more than just this.  

Oh I'm not done.
Come now more quotes showing Freddie as an athiest so that I might counter. I don't want to post them all at once.

hehehehehehe YOU.

http://jbburnett.com/resources/lossky/lossky-createdbeing.pdf

[omahaha]

Perhaps to clarify the debate:

1) What do you consider pagan?

2) What is to be considered religious activity? Is cultish behavior to be considered religious?

3) Do you have to believe in supernaturalism to be religious?

[Childe Harold]

OK forget lonely quotations for a moment and hear out these arguments.

1) Nietzsche did not believe in an immanent God; in fact he ascribed the power of the creator to the "overman." Realization of the will to power is creation--of art, of literature, of culture. From this it follows that he was not in any way theist, since theists believe in an immanent God who creates. And since only God creates, humans, by this logic, can't. Here is a passage from the Will to Power:

"We need not worry for a moment about the hypothesis about a created world. the concept "create" is completely indefinable, (word illegible) unrealizable; merely a word, a rudimentary survival from the ages of superstition; one can explain nothing with a mere word. The last attempt to conceive a world that had a beginning has lately been made several times with the aid of logical procedures--generally, as one may divine, with an ulterior theological motive."

2) Nietzsche believed in eternal occurence, which takes as its premise the concept that there is no beginning or end--just a continuum in which a number of elemental combinations repeat themselves. Again, no room for a deity in this universal order.

3) Nietzsche may have exalted the figure of Dionysius, but he did most definetly did not worship him, as UW so glibly puts it. Worship demands deference. And was deference something Nietzsche paid to any being? Hardly. In fact he pored scorn on this from of servility, religious as it usually was. The "overman" certainly isn't deferential. No, it's most obvious that Nietzsche uses Dionysius metaphorically. To associate this metaphor with proof of his un-atheism (and thus logically proof of his theism) is to be literal-minded in the extreme. Here is an illustrative passage from The Will to Power:

"...:this, my Dionysian world of the eternally self-creating, the eternally self-destroying, this mystery world of the twofold voloptuous delight, my "beyond good and evil".....do you want a name for this world? A solution for all its riddles. A light for you, too, you best-concealed, strongest, most intrepid, most midnightly men?--This world is the will to power--and nothing besides! and yo yourselves are also this will to power--and nothing besides!"

It's clear that by "my Dionysian world" he doesn't mean my world that Dionysius created or my world in which Dionysius sustains me--as it is with God for the pious. Nor is he here urging his own regard of Dionysius on others. He knew of course that in doing this would be guilty of a rank form of moral pedagogy, a vulgar evangelicalism, and that his audience would further be guilty of an equally vulgar genuflection. All there is, he tells us, is will to power--nothing else. No gods or spirits. What more do I have to say?

[underworld men]

No one has stated that anyone who worshiped Dionysus did so as Dionysus creator of the cosmos or universe.

So did Nietzsche believe in Dionysus or not?

Its pretty simple.
Freddy made it unclear so the answer will clarify was Nietzsche an athiest? If so where does he say he is an athiest? Was he a nihilist if so where does he say he's a nihilist?

Plotinus was a pagan and though he professed a belief in the Gods and one God or monad he did not believe the universe was created from nothing. Plotinus believed the universe always was and that it was in constant change giving the illusion of creation while simply changing.

So did Nietzsche believe in Dionysus or not.

[Childe Harold]

Nietzsche did not believe in Dionysius.

He says he was an atheist in Ecce Homo, where he writes of the idea of God (or a god) as a "gross answer". Believing in Dionysius would be a grosss answer. He says it obliquely no doubt, but is it really neccesary for him to announce his atheism? Come on, his writing is all about how to live without the existence of God.

Why split hairs here? It's not like you can co-opt Nietzsche for the purpose of Christian apology, like you have for Dostoevsky. I'm just curious of what your point is.

Oh and I never said he was a nihilist. And you know better than not to distinguish between atheists and nihilists.

[underworld men]

Nietzsche did not believe in Dionysius.

He says he was an atheist in Ecce Homo, where he writes of the idea of God (or a god) as a "gross answer". Believing in Dionysius would be a grosss answer. He says it obliquely no doubt, but is it really neccesary for him to announce his atheism? Come on, his writing is all about how to live without the existence of God.

Why split hairs here? It's not like you can co-opt Nietzsche for the purpose of Christian apology, like you have for Dostoevsky. I'm just curious of what your point is.

Oh and I never said he was a nihilist. And you know better than not to distinguish between atheists and nihilists.

OK give me the specific quote.

Co-opt Dostoevsky? With comments as bent as that why would you wonder about my doubt in your comments.

And no, this is your ringer. Or more clearly...Remember Zosima or Ambrose. Convince me, your the one who denounces faith.

And tell me something, if a nihilist believes in a return to nothingness at death as does an atheist, isn't the difference between them splitting hairs?

For most certainly it is not atheists in a general sense, one must worry about. No, it is the ones who are nihilistic, because a belief in nothing is a direct reflection of what belief they embrace- that holds them to moral convictions.

So what holds a nihilist to moral convictions?
Nothing.

Oh was Freddie an immoralist?

What is the underground/cave?
It is...
Locked in an inertia provoked by despondency, this compunction is nothing but cowardice under the delusion of self worth, of vainglory. Courage comes from grace, grace is the fusion of man with the spirit of God.
The price of grace is the submission of freewill, by freewill to the spirit of God.

[Mika]

I am doing a paper on the idea of the overman, and I found this quotation from Thus Spoke Zarathurstra. I thought it may demonstrate a little of Niezschie's beliefs...


"Lo, I teach you the Superman!

The Superman is the meaning of the earth. Let your will say: The Superman SHALL BE the meaning of the earth!

I conjure you, my brethren, REMAIN TRUE TO THE EARTH, and believe not those who speak unto you of superearthly hopes! Poisoners are they, whether they know it or not.

Despisers of life are they, decaying ones and poisoned ones themselves, of whom the earth is weary: so away with them!"

—trans. Thomas Common, Thus Spoke Zarathustra, Prologue, sec. 3

[Childe Harold]

Well thank you Mika. "Superearthly hopes"-- What a wonderful phrase to encapsulate the pious nonsense that gets bandied about this site. Oh yes and it also goes to Nietszchie's atheism, but hey, you and I know aren't disputing that are we. A pagan worshiper? Don't make me laugh.


P.S. Be sure Mika, when you read the book, to mark the line where Zaruthustra requires that his disciples betray him in order for him to return. I don't have a copy with me, but it stays in my mind as a most affecting rebuke to the contemptible deference of piety. If I remember correctly it comes at the end of part 2. Well, Cheers and carry strongly on!

[underworld men]

Well thank you Mika. "Superearthly hopes"-- What a wonderful phrase to encapsulate the pious nonsense that gets bandied about this site. Oh yes and it also goes to Nietszchie's atheism, but hey, you and I know aren't disputing that are we. A pagan worshiper? Don't make me laugh.


P.S. Be sure Mika, when you read the book, to mark the line where Zaruthustra requires that his disciples betray him in order for him to return. I don't have a copy with me, but it stays in my mind as a most affecting rebuke to the contemptible deference of piety. If I remember correctly it comes at the end of part 2. Well, Cheers and carry strongly on!

Ok then quote me where he explicitely stated that he (Nietszchie) was an atheist.

[Childe Harold]

Quote me where Dostoevsky explicitly says "I am an Orthodox Christian." In fact quote me where I say I am atheist. Some things are just too obvious. Saying them would be crude and unneccesary.

But if you want, show me where Nietzschie explicity states that he is a pagan worshipper.

[underworld men]

Quote me where Dostoevsky explicitly says "I am an Orthodox Christian." In fact quote me where I say I am atheist. Some things are just too obvious. Saying them would be crude and unneccesary.

But if you want, show me where Nietzschie explicity states that he is a pagan worshipper.

I asked you first.

[Childe Harold]

Courage comes from grace, grace is the fusion of man with the spirit of God.
The price of grace is the submission of freewill, by freewill to the spirit of God.

Fusion with what? The spirit of god. I find this cant, and a major cop-out. Besides, submission is cowardice. There is no courage in quietism. Remember that saying about having the serenity to accept the things we cannot change, having the courage to change the things we can, and wisdom always to be able to tell the difference. So perhaps there is wisdom in quietism. But in any case wisdom doesn't equal courage.

You did ask me first about Nietzsche. I gave you a few quotations--nothing conclusive to be sure--but enough to show he was a pretty secular guy. If this isn't enough, then so be it.