The Dostoevskian

[highseas]

I marvelled at his eloquent and poetic thoughts and I was left in awe at the way his mind brought forth so much discourse, but, to me, he seemed beyond redemption (as a character) because of his haughty intellect.

     That's a good point about Ivan.  What struck me about Ivan was his outrage that children should have to suffer.  I don't remember offhand exactly what he witnessed that involved death and suffering of children and the young, but I believe that is what pushed him over the edge and as a result lost faith in any kind of God.  I was sympathietic towards Ivan and felt that his reaction was normal, though as you say, maybe he crossed the line somewhere and deserved what he got.

[Screamgrip]

Of course, this is only my own opinion, and I have friends who see Ivan as some kind of literary demi-god because of the ideas he put forward.

I know someone who feels the same. He says that Ivan's ideas are not very different from Neizstsche. I tried to corroborate that myself but I guess my reading is not wide enough.

 

don't remember offhand exactly what he witnessed that involved death and suffering of children and the young

Isnt that a motif in Dostoevsky. Note the incident with the Horse and a young Raskolnikov in C&P.

[highseas]

I know someone who feels the same. He says that Ivan's ideas are not very different from Neizstsche. I tried to corroborate that myself but I guess my reading is not wide enough.

 

     I think it is true that Ivan is a symbol for the Neiztschean school of philosophy.  But I think there was good reason for Ivan to think like he did.  The apparent senseless suffering of children that he witnessed became deeply embedded in his psyche.
     FD's writings often introduced many different philosophies, ways of thinking, in his novels.  Characters of strong faith, weak faith and so on.

[Screamgrip]

I think it is true that Ivan is a symbol for the Nietzsche school of philosophy.

So Nietzsche himself could have belonged to the pages of FD?

But I think there was good reason for Ivan to think like he did.The apparent senseless suffering of children that he witnessed became deeply embedded in his psyche.

Good Point. It also leads me to think if FD was making a point through the characterisation of Ivan. I mean what did Ivan stand for? A libereated atheist whose lack of belief permeated into every aspect of his life and made life itself a burden? Or was it a man liberated from the shackles of religion and lost in a world that still was pious?

[highseas]

So Neiztsche himself could have belonged to the pages of FD?

Good Point. It also leads me to think if FD was making a point through the characterisation of Ivan. I mean what did Ivan stand for?

     FD often brought up the subject of atheism through his characters, so yes, Nietzsche popped up in FD's work.  And I definitely think FD was making a point through characters like Ivan.  In the case of Ivan I think his atheism was part of the reason for his mental condition.  

     Maybe the point is not "what did Ivan stand for", but more that Ivan served as a conduit for FD's own beliefs and served as a way to bring out into the open a dialogue on religious beliefs, morality, philosophy and lifes' dilemmas and problems in general.

[Screamgrip]

...Ivan served as a conduit for FD's own beliefs...

No disputing that. But be as it may, just to make Ivan a mouthpiece (albeit a negative one) would not made him potent. A character cannot just be ideas. And yet FD made him real enough....abstract enough to stand by himself. Methinks just that act, that slightly wide definition of Ivan provides a clue into FDs brilliance as a story teller. A real ambiguity.

I dont know if I am clear enough. What I am trying to say can also be seen like this: if Ivan was just ONE set of ideas he wouldnt have survived either in literature or in the reader's mind. But he does. Which means FD left Ivan purposefully ambiguous. Ditto with Raskolnikov in CP. I mean imagine a "Grand Inquistor" like scene in a mordern novel where Ivan (THE character) walks into a chapter and makes a entirely different but not inconsistent point.

[highseas]

 A character cannot just be ideas. And yet FD made him real enough....abstract enough to stand by himself. Methinks just that act, that slightly wide definition of Ivan provides a clue into FDs brilliance as a story teller. A real ambiguity.

     I understand what you mean about Ivan being shrouded in ambiguity.  Other characters like Fyodor, Alyosha, Dimitri, are more clearly defined and therefore more understandable.  Ivan, as you said, is real and abstract.
     Ivan is definitely one of FD's most complex characters.  

[hull0997]

when he hallucinates the devil comes to see him but he doesnt want to acknowledge him as real .i dont think ivan is really an atheist i think he just wants to be an atheist but can't fully realize a world with no god and that drives him nuts because he doesn't want to believe in a god that allows so much suffering in the world. thats just what i took from it.

[highseas]

Ya' I agree with most of that hull0997.  It was a time in Ivan's life when he had to "struggle with his demons" as they say.  
     I read a book a long time ago called "Why Bad Things Happen to Good People".  It was kind of a tongue in cheek look at problems people have, mental and physical.  The author took a couple of pot shots at God and religion and I think FD sometimes does the same.

[Screamgrip]

In the last few days I have been trying to get hold of a good bio of Nietzsche's life.

First a link that bio's N in a normal format. This is also famous and considered extensive:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/nietzsche/

Then this link. While not strictly a bio speaks with certain authority about the life of a complex man.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/14/books/review/14VOLLMAN.html

[Screamgrip]

Its been sometime since I found someone to write about in this topic. How about this to start it again?

Do you think Yukio Mishima was a Dostoevskian....i.e., he could have walked out of a Dostoevsky Novel - whatever that means to you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yukio_Mishima