The 40's and the 60's - Demons

[Worm]

In "Demons" of Dostojewski is here and there spoken of the groups of the 40's and the 60's.  That is what this topic is about.
On one hand, this topic is for myself a gathering place for information about these groups, which is unfortunately for me, quite sparce.  So, if anyone has any information about them, feel free to just dump it in here.
On the other hand, is this topic a place to -discuss- these movements, which i find very interesting.
This is a shifting from the subject of Dostojewski to the 40's and the 60's .. i have put it in this category, because in my eyes it's a discussion about a part of 'Demons'.  

I have copy-pasted the explanation Axon gave me in the "Demons" topic, which are the first words that i've heard of these groups.

"sure. First of all they all called, men of the 40's and 60's and so on because Russians love to call everything by decades.  Secondly, beginning in the early 19th century, many factions all over Europe, and even the US, began having really leftist thoughts...these thoughts included such philosophies as Utilitarianism and Positivism, other ideas such as socialism, anarchism, and communism (again i stress, this is not as we think about communism now. The ideas of 'communes' was developed in France, and it stood for a country organized in communes, without a central government). Many of these thoughts came out of Germany, but that is another story in itself.

The first "leftist" revolutionaries in Russia are known as the 'men of the 20's ' but also as the 'Decembrists' (they are not important for D, but extremely important for Tolstoy). The Decembrists consisted of young noblemen and aristocracy. All they wanted was a government similar to that of Britain - a constitutional monarchy. Eventually, all of them were caught, and many were executed with a hanging in December of 1827; hence their name - the Decembrists.

The next wave of "revolutionaries" were the men of the 40's. Both Stepan and Karamazinov are part of this group. These noblemen got their education abroad, mainly in Germany, studied unedr such philosophers as Hegel, Herder, and Fiche...came back to Russia, and found that they have nothing to do. They started philosophizing on how to improve Russia. Their biggest idea was to have a very strong constitution and parliament. For the most part they abhorred violence, loved art, advocated reforms through the western culture, and were extremely cultured. Their ideas, however, did not catch on, but they have succeeded in implanting their seeds in a younger generation.

This younger generation are known as the men of the 60's...these people include Peter, Shatov, Nikolaj etc etc. Their ideas were the same ideas as those of the men of the 60's but multiplied by 100! These men, and women, were no longer aristocracy, but were of middle class (like the Stavrogins)...they abandoned the lofty ideas, and  culture of the generation before them. One of the most famous quotes from that period was made by Pisaryev, and I paraphrase "a pair of boots for a peasant is more important than all the works of Rembrandt". We can see that Stepan is opposed to this  quote twice in this book.

This is a very rough sketch of these groups, and is all I could write without looking up things. Hope it helps a bit. "
- Axon


I'll start the discussion in a few days, i don't have much time right now.



Note:
does someone have the text of that famous letter of Belinsky to Gogol?

[axon]

you could buy that letter, among some others here: http://www.polybiblio.com/lameduck/24316.html its only $37,500 USD  

anywho, I will check if my library has it...if it does I'll try to scan it and post it.

[Ivan]

The Decembrists consisted of young noblemen and aristocracy. All they wanted was a government similar to that of Britain - a constitutional monarchy. Eventually, all of them were caught, and many were executed with a hanging in December of 1827; hence their name - the Decembrists.

Well, if we're going to dive into this we might as well get our facts( ) straight.

It is first of all important to note that these young nobles were connected with the army.  An other important thing to know is that they were called Decemberists not because they were executed in December but because on the 14th of December they led parts of the army into revolt.
Nicholas crushed the uprising, executing some and exiling others.  The exiled Decemberists continued their revolutionary tradition and were seen as martyrs by later generations.
I don't know where you got the "execution in December" from but o well.

I'm currently reading about these movements so I'll try and post more later.  It is just soooo much information to try and sort out

[Ivan]

I'm not quite clear what you meant when you were talking about communes arising in France, does this mean this idea wasn't in Russia?  Well, they were.  Communes/cooperatives were heavily prevalent in 1860 radical literature, especially in Chernyshevsky.

[Ivan]

I think what separated the movements from the '40s from the movement from the 60's was:
In the 40's they were more nihilistic, they were more dedicated to eradicating anything that had to do with traditional government and social systems.  Nihilists don't really provide an alternative as much as they are concentrating on things life the emancipation of the serfs, etc.
In the 60's there were more solutions to be found within these movements.  These solutions were socialism, utilitarianism, etc.  The 60's were much more radical, like Axon said, because imposing a new system turned out to be more difficult then the attempt to eradicate an old one.

I think this dicotomy is expressed in the main character from Demons and his son.  Forgive me, I haven't read the novel and the characters names are slipping my mind.  

[Ivan]

Here are some books to take a look at, if you can find them!

Imperial Russia after 1961, Arthur Adams.
Emancipation of the Russian Serfs, Terence Emmons
Antinihilism in the Russian Novel of the 1860's, Charles Moser
Roots of Revolution, Franco Venturi
Young Russia, Abbott Gleason

If this is too much information I would definitely recommend an article by Sir Isaiah Berlin "The Populists' Moral Condemnation of Russia's Political and Social Systems," it is brilliant and is actually used in two of the books I recommended above.

[Ivan]

Here is something I wrote this weekend... it will eventually be a part of my third essay:
I hope it isn't too long because it doesn't look like the format is transferring over.


Nineteenth-century Russia was riddled with aspirations of revolution and political unrest.  One of the first events that sparked later radicalism was the Decemberist uprising, led by young nobles that had connections to the military.  These nobles wanted to overthrow the autocracy and, in it’s place, develop a constitutional regime.  In 1825, during the confusion of Nicholas’ accession to the throne, the Decemberists found their opportunity for action.  They were relying on an unstable government and unorganized authority to help in the success of their revolt.  It turned out that the Decemberists “at the critical moment [lacked] firm leadership and Nicholas, after hesitating, crushed the uprising” (Moser, Antinihilism 14-15).  Some of the Decemberists were executed, but most were exiled to distant parts of the Empire.  The exiled revolutionaries spread their revolutionary ideals, spawning a new generation of revolutionaries that viewed the Decemberists as martyrs.  The new revolutionaries gained the most influence in the 1840s; and groups contained within this movement were primarily nihilistic.  Groups like the Petrashevsky Circle focused on abolishing the contemporary government and social structures.  They were not focused on solutions as much as on helping the progress of movements which would lead to the decline of the current Russian government.  One of the most significant movements supported by the revolutionaries was the emancipation of the serfs, which was not successful until 1861.  The second wave of radicals were not ignored by the Russian government, and many of the members of the Petrashevsky Circle, including Dostoevsky, were sent to Siberia and underwent the torment of a mock execution.  Dostoevsky and others were blindfolded and lined up with soldiers prepared to fire when they were pardoned at the last moment possible.
Russian radicalism could not, however, be scared into dissolution and another radical movement arose in the 1860s.  The new radicals attacked the established Russian government by importing Western European ideas and moralities, so socialist and communist movements arose in Russia in the late nineteenth-century.  Radicals like Chernyshevsky, Pisarev and Dobroljubov were proponents of utilitarianism, socialism and scientific reform.  These individuals rejected all standard Russian Orthodox values, morals and structures for the structures that they found conciliatory to their attempts at social reforms.  The socialist ideals were embodied in a new Russian nihilism, present among Russian intellectuals and students.    
The reform movements occurred primarily in the educated classes of Russian society.  The class of educated individuals felt that they were overlooked and mistreated in Russian society and therefore strove to create a revolution that would give them what, they felt, was an appropriate social status.  The radicals were too few in number and strength not to be quieted by censorship and long stays in Siberian exile; aware of this, they recognized their only hope to be in the Russian peasant, free or not free.  The intended use of peasants for the purpose of revolution was masked by philosophies that imagined peasant life as a utopian ideal:
[t]he Populists looked upon [the serfs] as martyrs whose grievances they were determined to avenge and remedy, and as embodiments as simple uncorrupted virtue, whose social organization (which they largely idealized) was the natural foundation on which the future of Russian society must be rebuilt. (Berlin 2)
Utilitarian and socialist philosophies were intended to gain the respect and trust of the peasant class.  The radicals’ main goal was to raise their own social status, and the only possible way for them to accomplish this goal was to recruit the lowly masses who “formed over nine-tenths of the population” (ibid).  Chernyshevsky had the heroic idea that he was writing on the behalf of the peasant class, that he was their voice and their savior.  He, and other radicals, hoped that these notions would spread among the peasantry.  The peasants, however, were uneducated and therefore distant from the radical movements.  Their only concern was freedom from their feudal lords, and when they achieved this freedom in February of 1861, via a manifesto, peasants spread out the vast Russian Empire had great difficulty in understand the terms, “[w]hen the manifesto was published, the inhabitants began to look for someone who would interpret it in line with their ambitions” (Emmons, Emancipation 96).  They could not read and did not trust the town officials would could read.  They suspected that the officials would try and hide important parts of the manifesto, parts that granted more freedom than the officials were willing to give.  This confusion led to violence and peasant uprisings; the uprisings were unsuccessful and the peasants were quieted once the terms of the manifesto finally reached their ears.  
The radicals wanted to harness the energy of the peasantry and turn them once again against the government to achieve a more comprehensive reform, one that did not end with their emancipation.  The socialists played with the idea of “train[ing] experts to teach the ignorant younger brothers—the tillers of the soil, and, if need be, stimulate them to resist authority, to revolt and destroy the old order” (Berlin 4).  They also made other attempts to awaken the peasantry to their cause by setting off into villages with their radical ideals, “only to be met with non-comprehension, suspicion and often outright hostility” (Berlin 16).  They tried again in 1870, when “[y]oung intellectuals from the large city universities decided to don peasant dress, learn a trade if possible, gain the confidence of the peasantry and carry on revolutionary agitation among them” (Moser, 22).  The peasants reacted in the same manner as before, and did not understand what the students were trying to accomplish, “turn[ing] many of them in to the police” (ibid).

[Worm]

This is all so fascinating.  It's amazing such things have happened in the world .. it tells things about the human race.

Ivan, thanks for posting that.
Do you happen to have a name of one of those young intellectual revolutionaries that wore peasant dress and moved among the peasants, trying to stimulate them into revolution?  (last paragraph)  I'd like to read about an example of one of those people.  Who the hell gets himself into such a situation?

Can someone post the ideals of the various movements (40's, 60's, Decembrists)?  And not just one, or some vague idea about it, but the real ideals and ideas of them.


Does someone have a name of a real member of the men of the 40's (the Russian noblemen that moved to Europe, and studied under philosophers, and came back, and found they had nothing to do)?
How did they get it into their heads to move to Europe and study under philosophers?!

Where do you see such things nowadays?  I find people nowadays so boring and dull .. everybody is living nicely .. it almost seems like there is nothing happening out there, hence my fascination for movements like this.  There can really be action out there.


I'd still like to read the letter of Belinsky to Gogol .. if someone has the text, feel free to post it here.

Some more information that i've found on the Decembrists (it's difficult to find info online about the 40's and 60's):
http://www.bestofrussia.ca/decembrists.html

[axon]

>>An other important thing to know is that they were called Decemberists not because they were executed in December but because on the 14th of December they led parts of the army into revolt

yes you are right...I've looked in a few sources and that is completely right. I can swear that I read my icorrect version somewhere and my notes reflect that as well. But as it is, it is still incorect, thanks for pointing that out.

>>I'm not quite clear what you meant when you were talking about communes arising in France

well yes, the idea of the communes has not originated in Russia but as been brought from France...as we all know this style of government came into being as a very perverted form in Russia - but we all knew that it would as any form of utopia is bound to fail and end in a leading despotic minority...

[axon]

I forgot to add that threads similar to this one, once we get some more concrete information will be probably "stickified" or maybe eventually put in another FAQ style forum - what do you think Fyodor?

[Mogwai]

Ah, yes.  An FAQ is a GREAT idea!  I think I'll create another board for it and just call it 'FAQs on Dostoevsky'.  There, all the threads will be locked for common users but accessible to the moderators.  We'll gradually build it up into a very great resource.  Excellent idea axon!

If I don't do this by the weekend, remind me.  I've been playing catch-up in web work after my move last week across town and things have been extremely hectic.

[Worm]

well yes, the idea of the communes has not originated in Russia but as been brought from France...as we all know this style of government came into being as a very perverted form in Russia - but we all knew that it would as any form of utopia is bound to fail and end in a leading despotic minority...

Right, it came from France.
What a beautiful phenomenon that is.  Can you imagine it really happening?  Soldiers in France, looking at the state there .. being inspired by it, and they actually make the long journey back home (on foot or on a horse), and then they see their Russia, and compare it to what they saw in France, and want to change it all over there into what they saw in France?  That's amazing ...   I've been to the Ardens in Belgium, hiking for a day, all by myself .. it can be quite hard.  Imagine going all the way from Russia to France .. that's no shit .

Does someone have any real accounts from people of the Decembrists (letters, journals, photographs)?  Feel free to post.

[Worm]

Does anyone have names of people of those movements?