Zosima: Fatuous believer of shrewd atheist?

[Childe Harold]

Having gotten two-thirds of the way through TBK, I'm suprised to read on here how single-mindedly people can dote on Father Zosima, as the character whose loving piety appeals to their own religious beliefs, as the character who "speaks to them." (As a corollary I suppose Ivan doesn't "speak to them". No?)

As I see it, the sayings of Zosima in the Notes of the Life in God of the Elder Zosima are his putting the ideas of the Grand Inquisitor into practice. What is Zosima's response to the priests who complain they lack the means to teach the Scriptures and withhold their flock? He extols the Bible, in particular all that is miraculous and fantastic in it. Sound familiar? Miracle and mystery are two of three pulls by which "the clever people" take hold of the consciense of men.  Their figuring so saliently in this chapter, mainly part b) of it, Dostoevsky had to have intended to parallel words expressed by the Grand Inquisitor. Another scene of part b) I point you to occurs towards the end, when Zosima recollects his travelings with Father Anfim, and the young man they meet by the river. Zosima tells the youth that the animals are "with Chirst" as much as people are. The young man is pleased but also awed, and so to ram this piece of Pantheist nonsense home what does Zosima offer him? He tells the story of the bear and the saint. Upon hearing this, the young man sleeps his "light and sinless" sleep. Notice how Zosima uses the same word, "sinless", to describe the man when he sleeps as he used for the animals. To me the young man falling asleep before Zosima has to be symbolic of the "millions" over whom the Grand Inquisitor and his oligarchic "clever people" hold sway. The story of bear and the saint is of course a farce, a fiction, like all miracles and "mysteries". In telling it Zosima is either sincere and believes it, or is disingenuous and uses it only as a mystery to lull the  young man. Like the Grand Inquisitor, he knows the seductive power of mystery and man's suggestibility to it.

Before I end this post, I think it neccesary to qualify my likening Zosima to the Inquisitor with the following distinction. The Inquisitor may say he loves humanity, but his love is really more of a contempt at what most humans really are. Still the masses flock to him, since his hate looks like love, whereas Jesus's love looks like hate. In this respect I can't so determinedly identify Zosima with the Inquisitor, since, while Zosima may preach demagogy and false sentiment to the desperate and miserable, he has a deeper regard for humanity than the Inquisitor. We see in this in his love of Alyosha, whom he enjoins to go out into the world, since he is one of the few capable of using the freedom Jesus or God intended for him. I haven't quite finished TBK, so this last point may seem underdeveloped. Whether or not Zosima believes in God is just religious, I'm less sure, all though his piety does seem patently dubious.

When people respond and (I'm sure) disagree with this post, can they please bear the following two requests in mind. One relates to the Joseph Frank's biography(ies) of Dostoevsky, which I haven't read, but which I'm aware must throw light on my comments. This being so, can we agree for the sake of a level playing to keep the discussion strictly textual. Second, I've read some ridiculous "proofs" on here that say Zosima has to believe in God, since he is a monk and occupies himself in a monestary. This is fallacious reasoning, so I'd kindly ask to spare me your syllogisms.

[underworld men]

What the heck are you trying to say?

This post makes no sense. The only thing fatuous here is your accusations.

<quote>
When people respond and (I'm sure) disagree with this post, can they please bear the following two requests in mind. One relates to the Joseph Frank's biography(ies) of Dostoevsky, which I haven't read, but which I'm aware must throw light on my comments. This being so, can we agree for the sake of a level playing to keep the discussion strictly textual. Second, I've read some ridiculous "proofs" on here that say Zosima has to believe in God, since he is a monk and occupies himself in a monestary. This is fallacious reasoning, so I'd kindly ask to spare me your syllogisms.
</quote>

Also you don't like the proofs to bad, they are valid.
You can't qualify your opinion based exclusively on "an argument from silence." Also you don't recite the creed then you don't live in the monastery. That's rules. Zozima was a real person named Ambrose.

Also "lets keep it textual?"

You have like zero credibility after that statement. Anyone who has read TBK to at least passed Zozima's death knows what Zozima states when he dies.

These types of arguments are still just silly.
Plain silly.

And syllogisms? I don't think it a matter of deduction that Zozima believes in God. After the death of Zozima I think people will see whose deducing and or whose imposing their opinion upon Dostoevsky. And who is just reading the book and actually responding from what they have read.

[underworld men]

Alyosha remembered afterwards something of what he said to them. But though he spoke out distinctly and his voice was fairly steady, his speech was somewhat disconnected. He spoke of many things, he
seemed anxious before the moment of death to say everything he had not said in his life, and not simply for the sake of instructing them, but as though thirsting to share with all men and all creation his joy and ecstasy, and once more in his life to open his whole heart.

    "Love one another, Fathers," said Father Zossima, as far as Alyosha could remember afterwards. "Love God's people. Because we have come here and shut ourselves within these walls, we are no holier than those that are outside, but on the contrary, from the very fact of coming here, each of us has confessed to himself that he is worse than others, than all men on earth.... And the longer the monk lives in his seclusion, the more keenly he must recognise that. Else he would have had no reason to come here. When he realises that he is not only worse than others, but that he is responsible to all men for
all and everything, for all human sins, national and individual, only then the aim of our seclusion is attained. For know, dear ones, that every one of us is undoubtedly responsible for all men- and everything on earth, not merely through the general sinfulness of creation, but each one personally for all mankind and every individual
man. This knowledge is the crown of life for the monk and for every man. For monks are not a special sort of men, but only what all men ought to be. Only through that knowledge, our heart grows soft with infinite, universal, inexhaustible love.

 Then every one of you will have the power to win over the whole world by love and to wash away the sins of the world with your tears....Each of you keep watch over your heart and confess your sins to yourself unceasingly. Be not afraid of your sins, even when perceiving them, if only there be penitence, but make no conditions with God. Again, I say, be not proud. Be proud neither to the little nor to the great. Hate not those who reject you, who insult you, who abuse and slander you.

Hate not the atheists, the teachers of evil, the materialists- and I mean not only the good ones- for there are many good ones among them, especially in our day- hate not even the wicked ones. Remember them in your prayers thus: Save, O Lord, all those who have none to pray for them, save too all those who will not pray. And add: it is not in pride that I make this prayer, O Lord, for I am lower than all men.... Love God's people, let not strangers draw away the flock, for if you slumber in your slothfulness and disdainful pride, or worse still, in covetousness, they will come from all sides and draw away your flock. Expound the Gospel to the people unceasingly... be not extortionate.... Do not love gold and silver, do not hoard them....Have faith. Cling to the banner and raise it on high." But the elder spoke more disconnectedly than Alyosha reported his words afterwards. Sometimes he broke off altogether, as though
to take breath and recover his strength, but he was in a sort of ecstasy. They heard him with emotion, though many wondered at his words and found them obscure.... Afterwards all remembered those words.

[underworld men]

Having gotten two-thirds of the way through TBK, I'm suprised to read on here how single-mindedly people can dote on Father Zosima, as the character whose loving piety appeals to their own religious beliefs, as the character who "speaks to them." (As a corollary I suppose Ivan doesn't "speak to them". No?)

As I see it, the sayings of Zosima in the Notes of the Life in God of the Elder Zosima are his putting the ideas of the Grand Inquisitor into practice. What is Zosima's response to the priests who complain they lack the means to teach the Scriptures and withhold their flock? He extols the Bible, in particular all that is miraculous and fantastic in it. Sound familiar? Miracle and mystery are two of three pulls by which "the clever people" take hold of the consciense of men.  Their figuring so saliently in this chapter, mainly part b) of it, Dostoevsky had to have intended to parallel words expressed by the Grand Inquisitor. Another scene of part b) I point you to occurs towards the end, when Zosima recollects his travelings with Father Anfim, and the young man they meet by the river. Zosima tells the youth that the animals are "with Chirst" as much as people are. The young man is pleased but also awed, and so to ram this piece of Pantheist nonsense home what does Zosima offer him? He tells the story of the bear and the saint. Upon hearing this, the young man sleeps his "light and sinless" sleep. Notice how Zosima uses the same word, "sinless", to describe the man when he sleeps as he used for the animals. To me the young man falling asleep before Zosima has to be symbolic of the "millions" over whom the Grand Inquisitor and his oligarchic "clever people" hold sway. The story of bear and the saint is of course a farce, a fiction, like all miracles and "mysteries". In telling it Zosima is either sincere and believes it, or is disingenuous and uses it only as a mystery to lull the  young man. Like the Grand Inquisitor, he knows the seductive power of mystery and man's suggestibility to it.

Before I end this post, I think it neccesary to qualify my likening Zosima to the Inquisitor with the following distinction. The Inquisitor may say he loves humanity, but his love is really more of a contempt at what most humans really are. Still the masses flock to him, since his hate looks like love, whereas Jesus's love looks like hate. In this respect I can't so determinedly identify Zosima with the Inquisitor, since, while Zosima may preach demagogy and false sentiment to the desperate and miserable, he has a deeper regard for humanity than the Inquisitor. We see in this in his love of Alyosha, whom he enjoins to go out into the world, since he is one of the few capable of using the freedom Jesus or God intended for him. I haven't quite finished TBK, so this last point may seem underdeveloped. Whether or not Zosima believes in God is just religious, I'm less sure, all though his piety does seem patently dubious.

When people respond and (I'm sure) disagree with this post, can they please bear the following two requests in mind. One relates to the Joseph Frank's biography(ies) of Dostoevsky, which I haven't read, but which I'm aware must throw light on my comments. This being so, can we agree for the sake of a level playing to keep the discussion strictly textual. Second, I've read some ridiculous "proofs" on here that say Zosima has to believe in God, since he is a monk and occupies himself in a monestary. This is fallacious reasoning, so I'd kindly ask to spare me your syllogisms.

Also the story from above (giving the bear part of his bread)  is part of St Seraphim of Sarov's life story.

[Childe Harold]

What's this nonsense about "argument from silence". Once again Underworld Men you're putting words in my mouth, and proving that the safest way to refute an argument is by not countenancing it.

I've read up to Book Nine and don't think I'm wrong in thinking that there will be no great revelations or significant mentionings of Zosima beyond this point. If there are I will consider them.

That Zosima is a monk and therefore believes in God is not a valid proof, only an assumption. Not having read Frank I requested people to keep their arguments based on the text of TKB. Hardly a discreditable thing to ask for. In fact the only thing discrediting here is your resorting to condescension and aspersion when challenged by people who've "misinterpreted" aspects of Dostoevsky that you take as inviolable. My "accusations are silly just silly"? You sound like a child. Unfortunately Underworld Men your being a moderator on this site doesn't endow your words with the deference you might like them to command.

Burble away...

[Childe Harold]

Ah now I see some actual arguments. Thank you

[Childe Harold]

Yes Father Zosima does seem quite pious in those quotations, but then again, I'm sure the Grand Inquisitor's ability to dissimulate in his performances before the laity was developed to an equally believable degree. Remember it is through Alyosha's account of Zosima that we base our perceptions of him. And his canonizing tone is one I'm inclined to be suspect of.

Perhaps Zosima did after all believe in God, although as I say, the nature of his faith is one I'd have to regard as fatuous and fanatic. (This certainly isn't my view of all believers, just the fatuous, fanatic and sanctimonious.) However, my interpretation of him as a reification of the Inquisitor is mostly esthetic. It enlivens TKB for me.

[littlefermat]

Hi,

You put forth an interesting argument about Zossima, but ultimately, I don't believe it.  At the present moment (ie. I don't have a copy of the TBK in front of me), I can't respond in full to your comments, but I'd like to comment about the first parallel you draw between  Zossima and The GI.   I don't believe the miracle and mystery that Zossima talks about in the Bible is similar to the miracles and mysteries that the GI discusses.  In short, when Zossima talks about the miracle and mystery of the Bible, I believe he is drawing attention to the sort of paradoxical truths it holds.  So, consider the story of Job; in short, Job faithfully serves God but is allowed to rot because of God's bargain with the Devil.  His entire life is torn apart and everything he has earned is lost.  And yet, at the end of his life, he is content and at peace.  His wealth is restored and he looks back at his life calmy and peacefully.  It's true that it's not the same since he lost everything, and yet, he is happy.  Well, to a nonbeliever, the story of Job illustrates a callous and insensitive God.  Yet, as Zossima points out, that's not the point of Job.  Rather, it is that Job is happy again and lives happily after all that he had lost.  In other words, the "miraculous" and "mysterious" in the Bible is that it contains these paradoxical truths of life.  It's true that things aren't the same since he has lost everything, but he has been able to overcome this and be at peace with his past.  I suppose you could say that there is no justification for the pain and suffering in the world, but, according to D., these things can be overcome, in a way.

This, of course, is vastly different from the mysteries and miracles that the GI preaches, which are essentially related to power and authority over others as you pointed out.

I hope this made some sense. I don't have a copy of TBK with me so I can't find the exact quotes, and I'm going off of memory right now.

[rutabagas]

Dear Childe H:

You wrote: However, my interpretation of him [Zosima] as a reification of the Inquisitor is mostly esthetic. It enlivens TKB for me.


If you must devise such parallels (which require you to close one eye to half of what the character himself says and the manner in which he says it) in order to enjoy a book which is otherwise incredibly rich and sumptuous with human detail, then so be it.  But don't be surprised if others will not join you.  

And in fact, you said yourself you expected to be countered.  Which then begs the question, why did you seek the opinions of others?  What were you hoping to prove?  I recently finished re-reading the passage in which Zosima talks with Madame Kholakhov, so I have Zosima's initial words to her on my mind.

[SFG75]

A bit of a dated discussion here, but one that still has potential to be revived.   I would argue that if he were a real person, that Zossima's faith is rock solid.  Upon entering his cell, he entertains a bright and blabbing Fyodor Karamazov.  He deftly handles the old man and he spots the man for what he is.  He is not lulled into the father's trap of backslapping friendliness and flattery at all.  Not only that, but the discussion about the ecclesiastical courts with Peter Miusov shows that he is more than the equal of the liberal Miusov and matches him point for point.  Lastly, he practically pushes Alyosha out the door to confront the perils and problems that his family has brought him.  Zossima knows that Alyosha must confront these temptations and "muck" that is outside the monastery doors.  Only through the trial by fire will Alyosha come to understand possess a deeper faith than he has now.  Rather than being one who avoid the world from his cloister, Zossima is perfectly aware that engagement with the world is necessary when the monastic has sufficiently prepared himself for such a trial. 

[The Cajun Karamazov]

This is interesting, but I think that Zosima was intended more as an antithesis of the Grand Inquisitor, e.g. a man who rules through love and kindness, instead of through fear. It seems to me like A Russian Monk is the reply to The Grand Inquisitor by showing a life simply and well lived. It is true that A Russian Monk is full of references to miracle, mystery, and authority; but it seems, to me at least, that they are miracle, mystery, and authority in their proper place, rather than how they are perverted by the Grand Inquisitor.
You bring up an interesting point about Zosima and his faith. Fatuous and fanatic I wouldn't consider it, but instead simple and founded on the basis of love and charity. The main point of Zosima (and, in the end, The Brothers Karamazov) seems to be founded on the basis of freely given love that is equal towards all.