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Author Topic: Just started reading the Idiot  (Read 1607 times)
Duffs
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« on: April 27, 2012, 08:14:48 AM »

Finished the first five chapters of the novel this morning, my first Dostoevsky. Amazed at the number of characters who have an apparent story to tell, will try to explain what I think is going on! I am always willing to listen to opinions. Thanks
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RomanRussia
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« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2012, 01:43:56 PM »

Finished the first five chapters of the novel this morning, my first Dostoevsky. Amazed at the number of characters who have an apparent story to tell, will try to explain what I think is going on! I am always willing to listen to opinions. Thanks

 That's great! So what you learned?
 
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Help me, us, all, understand where were Dostoevsky wrong or outdated...Huh
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« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2012, 04:03:32 AM »

Well looking back it is interesting to see how important the descriptions of peoples faces are to Dostoevsky, they are always so specifically drawn. The Prince mentions reading people by their faces at the end of the fifth chapter. He is very keen to get the daughter to draw the faces at the execution scene in the part where they are supposed to be "vetting" him.
If i can be pretentious here when the novel starts in a fog, like Bleak House I expected a depressing blanket put on the characters like Dickens does, but exactly the opposite occurs and the characters are all jumping off the page keen to tell their stories.
The devil is not supposed to be able to understand the simple man and this appears to be where The Prince is inhabiting.
The two characters both appearing with calculating manners that I have taken a small dislike to are Ganya and General Yepanchin.
I am looking forward to a possible reappearance of Rogozhin, and must applaud him  for his outrageous and impressive performance with his fathers finances and the diamond earrings.
I'll be back after the next 5 chapters!
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Duffs
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« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2012, 10:04:17 AM »

The fact that the next 5 chapters do not even take us into the next day and give the impression that much is left to be said and done was an interesting element of this section. The notion of reading peoples characters is still to the fore in the novel with one character specifically praising The Prince for his talent here. He shows a very "Christian" like manner in his affinity with a fallen woman-Marie and then with children. His naive and honest attitude starts a few problems when he mentions the beauty of Nastasya and performs like an honest broker in the scene with Ganyas letter to Aglaya. At this stage every character bar Myshkin is pursuing an agenda lacking in basic truth.
The outstanding interaction I feel in the first 10 chapters is when The Prince reacts to Ganya calling him an idiot. He responds with venom and gives the first indication of being willing and able to fight his corner.
i was expecting Rogozhin to have a better reintroduction into the novel, however he comes over as fairly boorish but truly obsessed  with Nastasya who despite being a flawed character does not deserve the cynical manipulation of Ganya and the General. Hope I am on the right track?
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carnage_complex
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« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2012, 02:40:30 PM »

The fact that the next 5 chapters do not even take us into the next day and give the impression that much is left to be said and done was an interesting element of this section. The notion of reading peoples characters is still to the fore in the novel with one character specifically praising The Prince for his talent here. He shows a very "Christian" like manner in his affinity with a fallen woman-Marie and then with children. His naive and honest attitude starts a few problems when he mentions the beauty of Nastasya and performs like an honest broker in the scene with Ganyas letter to Aglaya. At this stage every character bar Myshkin is pursuing an agenda lacking in basic truth.

    I liked the Marie anecdote, too.  Myshkin is entirely tactless.  Other people are drawn to him through an insidious power dynamic which makes them both conscious of their own magnanimity and ashamed of it.  His reference to Nastasya sets the Epanchins on the warpath for the same reason that Marie incited the children to something untoward...because none of them really understand her.  I agree with you that there is certainly some untruth here, but how much of that is contrived and how much of it is something that the respective characters are unconscious of...and, seen in that light, can it really be seen as untruth?  
 
The outstanding interaction I feel in the first 10 chapters is when The Prince reacts to Ganya calling him an idiot. He responds with venom and gives the first indication of being willing and able to fight his corner.
i was expecting Rogozhin to have a better reintroduction into the novel, however he comes over as fairly boorish but truly obsessed  with Nastasya who despite being a flawed character does not deserve the cynical manipulation of Ganya and the General. Hope I am on the right track?

    He isn‘t obsessed with her, he‘s obsessed with something bigger, which will probably make itself clearer to you as the plot unfolds.  He is a boor because he wallows in his own degradation.  

    And welcome, Duffs!  It‘s good to have you here.  I hope that you get a lot out of “The Idiot.”  It was the first major Dostoevsky novel that I read, after perusing “House Of The Dead” for the first time.  I read it all in one sitting, I was that engrossed by it...
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« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2012, 09:00:48 AM »

Reading the next 5 chapters it is very difficult looking back not to be unduly influenced by the Prince's declaration to Nastasya at the end of chap 15. It really effects the attitude that one has of the book so far. If we didn't believe that he was so innocent and guileless then we might have thought that he had been playing a sophisticated and cynical game to get her for himself. Chapter 11 has the strange conversation between himself and Ganya where this reader was almost drawn into believing that Ganya might have genuinely regretted attacking the Prince so publicly. Only Dostoevsky mentioning an unseen sarcastic smile gives lie to this thought.

One particular nasty calculating piece of information comes to light in this section and that is the fact that the General was wishing Ganya to marry Nastasya so that he may be "sold" her. The General is appearing a true villain so far with his business techniques, family manner and general lack of morals.

His and Totskys reminiscences in the parlour game while lacking the obvious and straightforward evil of the theft of 3 roubles and sacking of a maid mentioned previously, point to their calculating ruling class "crimes" that are even more so inexcusable because they appear to be borne of spite.

200 pages into the book and only 1 day in time covered I cannot really envisage the Prince and Nastasya casting aside all of the finance from Totsky marrying and living in simplicity on a surprise legacy.
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carnage_complex
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« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2012, 11:44:45 AM »

Reading the next 5 chapters it is very difficult looking back not to be unduly influenced by the Prince's declaration to Nastasya at the end of chap 15. It really effects the attitude that one has of the book so far. If we didn't believe that he was so innocent and guileless then we might have thought that he had been playing a sophisticated and cynical game to get her for himself.

    Shrewd of you.  Reading Myshkin, one does prognosticate a personality held in check.  You meet him and keep reading wanting to believe in the Prince, yearning to believe that he's the only real human being and that everyone else is rotted by their own fallacious spite.  You get the sense that his not 'winning' Nastasya is more of a resistance on his part than on hers...that he *could* win her if he wanted to.  He's got a way better sense of people than Rogozhin, General Epanchin, Ferdychenko, or Totsky, as evidenced by his conversation with the Epanchin girls. 

Chapter 11 has the strange conversation between himself and Ganya where this reader was almost drawn into believing that Ganya might have genuinely regretted attacking the Prince so publicly. Only Dostoevsky mentioning an unseen sarcastic smile gives lie to this thought.

One particular nasty calculating piece of information comes to light in this section and that is the fact that the General was wishing Ganya to marry Nastasya so that he may be "sold" her. The General is appearing a true villain so far with his business techniques, family manner and general lack of morals.

His and Totskys reminiscences in the parlour game while lacking the obvious and straightforward evil of the theft of 3 roubles and sacking of a maid mentioned previously, point to their calculating ruling class "crimes" that are even more so inexcusable because they appear to be borne of spite.

200 pages into the book and only 1 day in time covered I cannot really envisage the Prince and Nastasya casting aside all of the finance from Totsky marrying and living in simplicity on a surprise legacy.

    Dostoevsky's generals are usually comic figures.  Epanchin...well, his 'general' situation can be summed up by the word 'whipped' in conjunction with a synonym for a cat.  His days of infamy are long behind him.  Though he probably does cheat on his wife with hapless women of a lower economic strata frequently and with impunity, chances are that does so with at least some discretion (he's got a good deal more propriety than, say, General Ivolgin, who keeps a poor mistress and...well, is in debt to her and gets beaten by her).  Epanchin sees Nastasya as a fun night, nothing more, really.  He doesn't seem particularly distraught by her decision to run off with Rogozhin's crew.  The general probably means well in a way unique to his own life position; remember the stigma that followed 'kept women' of Nastasya's ilk in 19th century Russia.  If Totsky turned her out of doors, then chances are almost nil that she would ever marry respectably.  Epanchin probably figured that by 'selling' her to Ganya, he was arranging a fairly stable situation for her...not to mention indebting her to him, which, well, you know. 
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